But that tolerance has to come from ourselves as well. It's when we realize that a man with a cock ring has as much to gain or lose as a man without one, and the two unite to put pressure on society as a whole through national organizations and public outreach to protect their common interest, that our voices can finally be heard.
Once again I thing you are missing the point.
No one cares what someone chooses to stick to their dick. Either a cock ring or a toaster. Thats their choice, I tolerate it every time I go to a nudist resort. Personally I dont think its appropriate but Id never tell someone to stop wearing it.
What bothers me and others, is the lies that go with it.
Woodsman instead of responding to all your points many of which I disagree, I will focus on the last one. I think it is reflective of some other points you made. My question to you is this. You speak of the need for tolerance, but tolerance to what end? Actually I dont care for the word tolerance in this context I prefer acceptance. But I will use it ,since that is what you used and avoid getting into the semantics of the language.
When you say we should be tolerant, what is it that you hope to achieve? If the individuals are engaging in behavior that is not conducive to the intentions and goals of the nudist movement, what is the point of toleration? Is it just to say somehow nudists are tolerant and avoid being called prudes or gatekeeper? Is there any benefit gained from the tolerance?
The reason I ask is because every time this idea of tolerance is floated as a way to expand nudism it has failed spectacularly. In the golden age of nudism in America several attempts at tolerance were made. During this time several noted American psychologists and sociologists promoted the value and benefits of nudism. However, when nudists strayed away from those principles to try to attract not others from mainstream society but from alternative lifestyles not aligned with nudist principles here is what happened.
Nudists tried to practice tolerance to engage film producers and magazine publishers in that era to expand the movement. Those people took the hard fought legal gains of nudists and launched adult film and magazine publishing empires while nudist films and magazines ended up on the dust heap.
Nudists practiced tolerance to engage participants in the free love movement of the sixties only to be branded with the stigma of sexual perversion that destroyed many family nudist venues and started the decline of family nudism overall. Family nudism was at the heart of the golden age of nudism as needed to continue to grow social acceptance of nudism.
More recently there are those among the nudist content creator class who stated we should tolerate those who do $*x work and adult orient content creation online. Now searching the term nudist online returns more p#rn than anything even vaguely connected to nudism.
So I am not interested intolerance. If I cant find any common points of acceptance like acknowledging a person's can be a nudist and practice non sexual social nudity regardless of their race ethnicity, sexual orientation or body shape and size, I dont see the point of toleration. Interestingly enough the areas of acceptance were not pursued by nudists until very recently when out of necessity they became tolerated.
Why would I invite mosquitoes (metaphorically speaking) into the big tent and tolerate them if their presence prevents everyone else in the tent from enjoying the activities in a way we desire. If their presence actually serves to deter others from getting under the tent I dont see the point. I think it is better that nudists hold to principles and values of nudism beyond nakedness and support the libertines right to pitch their own tent with their own intention principles and values. There they can be more than tolerated but accepted by peers and those of like mind. Simply put getting in bed with the libertine crowd has never actually led to the growth of nudism just the growth of those alternative lifestyles and the diminishment of nudism. One researcher put it this way.
For the rakes', on the other hand, nudity is a sign of sexual readiness. Whats more, they are not sexually closed', but are rather open' ready to touch and be touched, ready for bodily contact and intimacy. This interpretation of nudity is in stark contrast to the one shared by naturists. - Aleksandra Herman Naturist Utopia and Libertine Rebellion
As to the cause being societal restrictions I leave you with this quote from from Shakespeare that is the theme for several articles I have written on the subject. "The faults lies not in the stars but in ourselves" Shame on genuine nudists to believe that we dont have enough substance or capacity to attract people to the way of life without devolving to the lowest common denominator of nakedness to tolerate people who dont really tolerate up. In my opinion we were better than that and I use the past tense intentionally.But that tolerance has to come from ourselves as well.
Good points, all of them. (And BTW, I found the Hoffman book and am reading it now.)
The trouble with any movement is that there are splinter groups that take the movement into places where the originators did not want to go. For example, the non-violent movement against racism begat the Black Panthers and the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee, which morphed into what one commentator said should be the "Non-Student Violent Coordinating Committee."
Similarly, some people protesting the mistreatment of animal ended up throwing blood onto people wearing leather or fur. Gun rights advocates took to wearing arms openly, even to churches. Abortion protesters took to harassing women who went to Planned Parenthood, shaming them by publishing pictures. And the present crisis in Gaza has resulted in college takeovers and threatening Jews, which is totally counterproductive for those people who, like myself, are pointing out that being against Isreali government policy is not the same thing as being anti-Semite.
I agree that those in the mainstream of a movement have a hard time with those who take it too far and invoke societal backlash. Somebody, on this forum or another, asked me once why, if I'm so dedicated to nudism, I don't get arrested for being nude in public as a protest. That approach hasn't worked very well... It's not the same as a Black person sitting down at a lunchroom counter in South Carolina in the sixties. (Gypsy Taub's non-productive activism on legal nudity is a case in point.)
But my point, which I hope you'll concede, is that we don't do our movement any good if we exclude people with tattoos or cock rings or other adornments, even though they clearly don't embrace the "naturist" ideal of a perfect, unadorned body (except for tans). Those aren't mosquitos in the big tent. If the jewelry is blatantly sexual or the tattoos are pornographic or symbolic of hate groups, that's another matter. We definitely do want to disassociate with them, and bring out the DEET.
If you look at the membership of AANR or TNS or British Naturism, I doubt if you'll find many of these purists around anymore. Their political clout is next to zero.
Instead, we should seek common ground... people who simply want to be nude and socialize in a non-sexual environment where they can be comfortable without clothing. The more people who subscribe to this common ground, the more political clout we'll have, and the better we'll be able to persuade society that we won't bring them to harm if they let us do our thing.
But my point, which I hope you'll concede, is that we don't do our movement any good if we exclude people with tattoos or cock rings or other adornments, even though they clearly don't embrace the "naturist" ideal of a perfect, unadorned body (except for tans). Those aren't mosquitos in the big tent. If the jewelry is blatantly sexual or the tattoos are pornographic or symbolic of hate groups, that's another matter. We definitely do want to disassociate with them, and bring out the DEET..
Im sorry, I have to concede this because Im not doing the naturist movement any good if I dont?
But the man or woman wearing sexual adornments on their genitals are conceding what exactly?
I dont think they are considering others or conceding that their lifestyle choice is in any way good for the naturist movment. I think nothing other that their own gratification is the goal.
Once again, Ill never tell someone that they cant wear what the hell they like, but no one weve met honestly believes that a simple cock ring or more is just jewellery.
If you look at the membership of AANR or TNS or British Naturism, I doubt if you'll find many of these purists around anymore. Their political clout is next to zero.
Is this comment based on any research or more of an assumption?
I cannot speak to the health of TNS or any other nudist organization with authority. AANR membership is down from a few years ago, that I have heard, and that drop blamed on numerous reasons including their having recently (in the last few years) changed the policy about a couple membership and a single membership costing the same. It didn't make a lot of nudists happy when AANR essentially doubled the cost of yearly membership with that stroke of a pen. I would have voted against that change if it had been brought to a vote. But do note that there are still tens of thousands of members involved, and their message of positive, wholesome, social nudism is still being brought to bear when nudists are threatened with injustice, both inside and outside of our ranks. We have not gone gentle into that good night, just yet.
I thought to ask the same question but havent had time to compose a response to the rest of Woodsman's comment. I and curious to hear his response as I dont believe it to be factual representative of a majority view point. While I agree with you that their "clout" is diminished it is far from zero as reported by the the AANR PAC they have staved of a couple of laws across the country that would have been even more troublesome for nudism that the place we find ourselves right now.
On a separate note to get a discounted membership buy through a club or resort rather than directly. I havent paid the full price ever because my membership is through my resort/club.If you look at the membership of AANR or TNS or British Naturism, I doubt if you'll find many of these purists around anymore. Their political clout is next to zero.Is this comment based on any research or more of an assumption?I cannot speak to the health of TNS or any other nudist organization with authority. AANR membership is down from a few years ago, that I have heard, and that drop blamed on numerous reasons including their having recently (in the last few years) changed the policy about a couple membership and a single membership costing the same. It didn't make a lot of nudists happy when AANR essentially doubled the cost of yearly membership with that stroke of a pen. I would have voted against that change if it had been brought to a vote. But do note that there are still tens of thousands of members involved, and their message of positive, wholesome, social nudism is still being brought to bear when nudists are threatened with injustice, both inside and outside of our ranks. We have not gone gentle into that good night, just yet.
wildwilly wrote:Is this comment based on any research or more of an assumption?
It's based on my personal knowledge of people who are in these associations, coupled with what they have published about their members in N magazine and the the monthly AANR e-zine they post every month.I cannot speak to the health of TNS or any other nudist organization with authority. AANR membership is down from a few years ago, that I have heard, and that drop blamed on numerous reasons including their having recently (in the last few years) changed the policy about a couple membership and a single membership costing the same.
From what I can tell, TNS membership is about the same, and I've heard that membership in British Naturists is up. Go figure. But I'd like to know what some of those other "numerous reasons" are besides the elimination of couples memberships.But do note that there are still tens of thousands of members involved, and their message of positive, wholesome, social nudism is still being brought to bear when nudists are threatened with injustice, both inside and outside of our ranks. We have not gone gentle into that good night, just yet.
Good for them! And I support them wholeheartedly.
stevielorna wrote:Im sorry, I have to concede this because Im not doing the naturist movement any good if I dont?But the man or woman wearing sexual adornments on their genitals are conceding what exactly?
What are you conceding when you go naked on the beach?
For me, it's not a matter of anybody conceding anything, but just being who they are and accepting others for who they are. I'm not saying that you have to approve of their jewellery or their tattoos or their hairstyle. I'm just saying that we have to see what we have in common, and use that to form the coalitions that make a difference politically.I don't think they are considering others or conceding that their lifestyle choice is in any way good for the naturist movement. I think nothing other that their own gratification is the goal.
Well, when I'm naked, I'm doing that for nothing more than my own gratification. I'm not there to please anybody else. So I see myself in the same boat with them, in a way.Once again, Ill never tell someone that they cant wear what the hell they like, but no one weve met honestly believes that a simple cock ring or more is just jewellery.
Maybe not. Curiously, I've read that in the nineteenth century in England, doctors recommended "spiked penile rings" to restrain uncontrolled sexual urges. That's just the opposite of a "sexual adornment" (unless, of course, they're masochists). So maybe that guy on the beach is wearing one for fear that he might get aroused and embarrass himself.
homeclothesfree wrote:I thought to ask the same question but havent had time to compose a response to the rest of Woodsman's comment. I and curious to hear his response as I dont believe it to be factual representative of a majority view point. While I agree with you that their "clout" is diminished it is far from zero as reported by the the AANR PAC they have staved of a couple of laws across the country that would have been even more troublesome for nudism that the place we find ourselves right now.
I agree that the clout of the "true naturist" is far from zero, but it's only that because they have allied themselves with the "not-so-true naturists" who support AANR and TNS in these organizations' efforts to preserve our legal rights. That's my point, in a nutshell. The issue is not what sort of jewellery we sport, but where our money and efforts go to support the people who carry our banner.On a separate note to get a discounted membership buy through a club or resort rather than directly. I havent paid the full price ever because my membership is through my resort/club.
I used to get a small discount when I paid my membership to TNS through my local club. Now that I'm an officer of that club, I get a free membership there, and pay my membership dues directly to TNS. But I encourage everybody to support their local club and at least one of the national associations, in whatever country they're in.
One more thing: I want to thank all the people who have recently submitted their opinions on this thread. We have legitimate differences in opinion, but we haven't degenerated into name-calling, which makes it a rarity on this site or, in fact, on many of the other internet sites I've experienced. I only wish I could meet you in person, and have a drink with you.
I, too, noted the variances in the many responses; it was good to see different points of view presented with degrees of opinions yet no one devolved to name calling or degrading another response. These types of discussions are far too rare, across the board, and really help everyone to get a better grip on the points presented. Thank you all for your contributions.
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