Male intimacy is almost an unacceptable in most of our cultural experiences and deliberately so as a driver of toxic socialization...Real masculinities. Plural. No one right way just many right moving and growing men. I say that first and foremost so you get to be included in what you seek because you are. I think it's important to include everyone who is moving away from the toxic and into a lighter and more gentle masculinity in all the range of what is really of value cause we're all works in progress and we are never finished.Toxic masculinity is a sexist term, primarily because there is no culturally acceptable female equivalent. It's a loaded term like "bitch" implying that a set of behaviors inappropriate for one gender is inappropriate for the other. Just ask any divorced man, and I am sure that he will be happy to educate you about toxic femininity. Therefore I recommend avoiding all sexist terms. Choose to build up rather than tear down.Contemporary men in the Western world are put in the quandy whereby they are criticized for being homosocial due to homophobia, while also criticized for expressing emotions such as anger arising out of their sense of alienation and isolation. It's correct that their only suitable response is to open their wallet and "improve themselves" as the marketers wish. I agree 100% that healthy masculinity need to include bonding and intimacy with both men and women as there are many expressions of this which are both platonic and sexual. In addition, I believe that this needs to happen in healthy one -on-one and group social situations, which offer people both an opportunity to belong in commonalities and individual expression.Healthy masculinity should aslo include anger, which is often left out of the equation. I grew up evangelical for example, and the idea of a "come to Jesus moment" never meant the equivalent of the biblical story of marching to the bank and turning over the money changers' tables. I personally deal with my anger in the gym, nature walks and talks with friends. Whereas I recognize it as a bit wonkish and difficult for people to comprehend, I've found solace in my individual masculinity and humanity through better understanding and living in my persona as defined in Jungian terms. This includes understanding my MBTI personality and archetypes which are ever-present all around us from biblical stories to Hollywood blockbusters, and it's all good.
An excellent post. As time goes on it becomes ever more apparent that despite what we were too often taught when we were kids ("sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me") words have power. While there was definitely a style of masculinity to which many men ascribed in whole or in part - and pressured each other to stick to that style (and there have also been plenty of women at fault in also holding men to extremely rigid sex roles) - I would have preferred that the phenomenon had not included the term "masculinity" or a similar word because the term "toxic masculinity" can too easily be misinterpreted by people and before you know it the definition has gotten all twisted and people are offended that masculinity appears to be the new punching bag while some are all too happy to make it the new punching bag. I thought the term "chauvinism" covered much of "toxic masculinity" anyway, couldn't an adjective be added to that word to try and attribute it to a phenomenon of behavior?
Another problem inherent in the use of terms like "toxic masculinity" is that the people who support the behavior described by the term "toxic masculinity" now have ammunition to claim that all men are under attack and any attempt to promote a more constructive form of life for men is "the wrongful replacement for manliness that is being forced on us and if you fall for it you've been duped by [insert the latest group being scapegoated]".
My apologies if my explanation has been less than ideal, but I hope that people understood the general point that I was trying to make: "words have power - be careful what labels you use because there may be unintended consequences later".
Hi Charles,
I consider myself to be a feminist because I recognize that men and women are equal in all ways both good and bad. And I agree with your post. There are many women who sadly support rigid roles for men and who descend into very hateful behavior to try and keep them in those roles by mocking their manhood, their sexuality, etc. etc. And yes, I would imagine that a blanket term like "toxic masculinity" would be far more likely to be put forward by a woman than by a man because in its general nature it can be all too easily applied to ALL men regardless of how they behave.
Well, we should not be ashamed of the fact that we're men any more than any woman should be ashamed of the fact that she's a woman. We all deserve to be respected as we are. And although it is a popular view that men-only groups behave negatively I have seen considerable documentation that in the absence of women - who usually do what is referred to as "emotion work", men take on the task of "emotion work" themselves. I was watching a British TV show called "Bad Lad's Army" - it's a reality show about modern men trying to survive the basic training that army recruits had to undergo in 1950's Britain - and in the show one of the members of the platoon (all male, of course) had been singled out for punishment and was feeling isolated and it was one of his fellow platoon members who tried to cheer him up and to get him to rejoin the group. It was really heartening to watch this display of kindness and friendship from one man to another - totally platonic, not amorous - because we don't often get to see it in media. This is a problem for straight men and for non-straight men because we don't get to see good modeling of close male friendships. So straight men are stuck with no model at all and non-straight men are stuck with the model that if they want any kind of closeness from other men then it has to be sexual in some way. But it does not have to be sexual. The term "bromance" was a very unfortunate choice of terminology because it made it seem like if any two men wanted a close relationship then there was some kind of romance to it. I can see how that would be uncomfortable for straight men. It's not homophobic to want to be recognized as one is - and if one is straight he has a right to be recognized as a straight man and wanting that does not make him anti-gay. My wanting to be recognized as a male is not anti-woman. I just want recognition as I am. I think that's a fundamental need for everyone. Everyone wants to be "seen." How can they be seen if they can't recognize the simplest attributes about themselves, like a straight man being a straight man, a gay man being a gay man, a white man being a white man, a (fill in the blank) man being a (fill in the blank) man?
There is a huge difference between being a feminist and hating men - just as there is a huge difference between people who claim to be Christian but who hold beliefs and who behave in ways that are as far from Christ as one can possibly get and people who really embody the virtues that Christ expounded. I'm afraid that there are a considerable number of women who either hate men or are uncomfortable with men or distrust men and who like to label themselves as feminists but they are not feminists - they just don't like men. And, as so often happens, whoever claims a label the loudest becomes the poster people for that label. So women who don't like men and who have loudly proclaimed themselves feminist have sadly taken that label for themselves just as people who hold beliefs and engage in behavior that would be anathema to Christ have taken the label "Christian." Just as the squeakiest wheel gets the grease the people who shout loudest and the longest get affiliated with whatever label they have chosen. (I hope I have made my point without offending any Christians - I thought it was a good parallel, but really the parallel can be applied to just about any group - there's always someone or a group of people who try and dominate what it means to be a part of a community and to imprint that community with their own definition).
There are many great aspects of masculinity and many great things that men bring to this world and we should not be ashamed of that. I am glad to be male, I am glad to have a male's body, I am glad to have a dick and balls, I appreciate masculine energy and masculine beauty and if I had a romantic partner I would want him to be considerably more masculine (as we Americans view it) than feminine. The decrease in homophobia is good for all men - because in an environment free of homophobia all men regardless of their sexual preference can form close emotional friendships. I think that women who disparage such close emotional friendships among men do so because for them it can mean loss of power. As I referenced earlier, women often do the "emotion work" for men and in that way husbands become dependent on their wives and if they get divorced later the men find they have no one to turn to. And I think some women are loathe to give up this influence that they can have on men - I think it threatens them because they have one less tool to use to their advantage. But them being threatened does not give them the right to deprive men of close emotional friendships with other men. And any woman who claims a close male friendship must be a sexual one is clearly a woman who is threatened by men having their emotional needs met by someone other than a woman. And if you find yourself having to defend any close friendship with another man to a woman in your life you may want to bring that up with her. Why is she threatened by your friendship? What does your friendship take away from her? If all she has in her argument is insinuations or allegations about your sexuality, call her on it. Can't she have female friends without it being sexual? And no, it is NOT different for men. We can have strictly platonic nonromantic friendships as well regardless of our sexuality. And we should not be denied that. Friendship is a fundamental need, like having a partner is a fundamental need.
Sorry if this post is a bit long, but I hope I have made my point OK. Thanks for reading!
Male intimacy is almost an unacceptable in most of our cultural experiences and deliberately so as a driver of toxic socialization...Real masculinities. Plural. No one right way just many right moving and growing men. I say that first and foremost so you get to be included in what you seek because you are. I think it's important to include everyone who is moving away from the toxic and into a lighter and more gentle masculinity in all the range of what is really of value cause we're all works in progress and we are never finished.Toxic masculinity is a sexist term, primarily because there is no culturally acceptable female equivalent. It's a loaded term like "bitch" implying that a set of behaviors inappropriate for one gender is inappropriate for the other. Just ask any divorced man, and I am sure that he will be happy to educate you about toxic femininity. Therefore I recommend avoiding all sexist terms. Choose to build up rather than tear down.Contemporary men in the Western world are put in the quandy whereby they are criticized for being homosocial due to homophobia, while also criticized for expressing emotions such as anger arising out of their sense of alienation and isolation. It's correct that their only suitable response is to open their wallet and "improve themselves" as the marketers wish. I agree 100% that healthy masculinity need to include bonding and intimacy with both men and women as there are many expressions of this which are both platonic and sexual. In addition, I believe that this needs to happen in healthy one -on-one and group social situations, which offer people both an opportunity to belong in commonalities and individual expression.Healthy masculinity should aslo include anger, which is often left out of the equation. I grew up evangelical for example, and the idea of a "come to Jesus moment" never meant the equivalent of the biblical story of marching to the bank and turning over the money changers' tables. I personally deal with my anger in the gym, nature walks and talks with friends. Whereas I recognize it as a bit wonkish and difficult for people to comprehend, I've found solace in my individual masculinity and humanity through better understanding and living in my persona as defined in Jungian terms. This includes understanding my MBTI personality and archetypes which are ever-present all around us from biblical stories to Hollywood blockbusters, and it's all good.
This is such an excellent set of thought-out perspectives. As a man and as a father of two sons who are now young men Im sick of the impunity enjoyed by entitled, misandristic ranting and also sick of the subversion of feminism and its justified campaign for equality into anti-male cynical opportunism and man-hate.
Masculinity is NOT toxic any more than femininity is. Sexism and gender-based hatred are wrong no matter who practices them!
Equality is a very simple concept to which I subscribe 100 per cent, but so-called positive discrimination is simply inequality and cynical opportunism hijacking true feminism.
I refused to teach my sons to be ashamed of their gender or their male feelings and needs. And Im proud of the young men theyre becoming.
As men we need to stand up against this cynical hatred and reject the lie about masculinity being intrinsically toxic thats so widely promulgated with impunity.
The very choice of the word TOXIC is telling - because if something is deemed toxic it doesnt even have to DO anything to be harmful. Its a choice of word which means that even if we males do nothing were wrong.
Enough is enough. Time for us to call out man-hate for the gender-based hatred it is.
I appreciate the honesty and openness of this thread, which at the core seems to be taking pride in being a man, being naked and having a cock and balls to enjoy and experience life. Whereas some labels have been affixed, the diaglogue generally goes beyond them. The integrity helps me to realize my experiences and better define my views, which I'll share if you care to read a rather lengthy post.
My family is originally from Sweden, which has one of the highest metrics of gender equality in the world. In Sweden I heard the Swedish word for equality (jamstalldhet) and in the US I heard the English word feminism, and assumed they were synonyms. After getting married and having two sons, my views changed. I had supported my wife in getting a masters, but suddenly she felt I was below her station following the feminist creed of "equal or better income." She became deeply unhappy for several reasons, including a change in mental health, and abruptly told me "my friends tell me that you're not what I signed up for." She filed for divorce and I found out how difficult single parenting is, and was shocked how many assumed I was the bad guy despite her severe bipolar swings. I also found out how little parenting knowledge I had because of my absent father and domineering mother who prided herself in being both the man and the woman of the house. Now I understand how my parents and exwife both adopted labels which may been valid but failed to meet both my sons' and my needs growing up. Perhaps it's all been toxic masculinity and toxic feminity, I don't know, but when labels distract us from raising our own kids, they're of not much service.
I raised my sons as best I could, with people commenting that I was filling both the role of both their mother and father. Now they're college age and both struggling and I'm there for them. I can't say they have many healthy role models of committed relationships with parents and grandparents divorced. I see men a few years older than them "going their own way." They complain that women's sense of entitlement (the three sixes: potential partners should be over 6 feet tall, have 6 pack abs and a 6 figure income) is so prevalent that they don't want to even try dating. Alternatively, if they can travel, they become "passport bros" and look for significant others in other countries. I don't know my sons' future but hope I've given them good tools to navigate it.
All in all, I realize that I'm likely both a victim and perpetrator of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. Throw labels but it comes down to imperfect parents raising imperfect kids in an imperfect world. Despite my having reinvented all the mistakes on my terms, I hope that my good and love will make the difference, and I let go of the results. In conclusion, threads like this help us heal and grow as men among men. We need more of that!
I appreciate the honesty and openness of this thread, which at the core seems to be taking pride in being a man, being naked and having a cock and balls to enjoy and experience life. Whereas some labels have been affixed, the diaglogue generally goes beyond them. The integrity helps me to realize my experiences and better define my views, which I'll share if you care to read a rather lengthy post.My family is originally from Sweden, which has one of the highest metrics of gender equality in the world. In Sweden I heard the Swedish word for equality (jamstalldhet) and in the US I heard the English word feminism, and assumed they were synonyms. After getting married and having two sons, my views changed. I had supported my wife in getting a masters, but suddenly she felt I was below her station following the feminist creed of "equal or better income." She became deeply unhappy for several reasons, including a change in mental health, and abruptly told me "my friends tell me that you're not what I signed up for." She filed for divorce and I found out how difficult single parenting is, and was shocked how many assumed I was the bad guy despite her severe bipolar swings. I also found out how little parenting knowledge I had because of my absent father and domineering mother who prided herself in being both the man and the woman of the house. Now I understand how my parents and exwife both adopted labels which may been valid but failed to meet both my sons' and my needs growing up. Perhaps it's all been toxic masculinity and toxic feminity, I don't know, but when labels distract us from raising our own kids, they're of not much service.I raised my sons as best I could, with people commenting that I was filling both the role of both their mother and father. Now they're college age and both struggling and I'm there for them. I can't say they have many healthy role models of committed relationships with parents and grandparents divorced. I see men a few years older than them "going their own way." They complain that women's sense of entitlement (the three sixes: potential partners should be over 6 feet tall, have 6 pack abs and a 6 figure income) is so prevalent that they don't want to even try dating. Alternatively, if they can travel, they become "passport bros" and look for significant others in other countries. I don't know my sons' future but hope I've given them good tools to navigate it.All in all, I realize that I'm likely both a victim and perpetrator of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. Throw labels but it comes down to imperfect parents raising imperfect kids in an imperfect world. Despite my having reinvented all the mistakes on my terms, I hope that my good and love will make the difference, and I let go of the results. In conclusion, threads like this help us heal and grow as men among men. We need more of that!
Hello,
I took the time to read your words. All men should be proud of themselves and who they are, you have been and always will be a man, nothing can take that away from you. Labels are complete bullshit, they are a way of society defining people for their agenda or to manipulate a given situation. Your integrity as a man is only dampened if others get to you through their words.
I don't intend to put your wife down with my words, nor do I want to. Equality and feminism are two very different animals ! Now you supporting your wife to obtain her Masters is a truly honourable thing to do as a husband, but at the end of the day, it's only a piece of paper telling you, you have achieved a certain level in that subject, it does NOT make them better than you. I am assuming your wife went to College or University to obtain her Masters ? A place full of Toxic feminism and your wife listened to them.
That Masters Degree does not and never has made her better than you, she was influenced by fools, a Masters Degree does not make you Einstein or anyone else for that matter, it made her arrogant of the fact that you were both a partnership that was working until the point is faltered.
Those vile excuses for "friends" that she listened to were and are the Toxic ones, not you. They knew nothing about you, just their self appointed arrogant opinion of men. That bullshit line of her so called friends "You're not what I signed up for". There was nothing wrong from the point of you both getting married and having kids until her Masters Degree came through. Yet you are suffering the label of supposedly having Toxic Masculinity.
Being a parent, single or otherwise is always hard, there are so many lessons to learn. One thing you are not is your parents, you come from a mix of them both, you are your own person. I realise it's not always easy to separate the domineering mother from your life growing up, yes she affected you in so many ways, but as the adult you are now, you can separate those feelings and emotions and put them in whichever box you want to. Labels are an easy way out of many things in life, including marriage and parenting. Labels are a societal item that can exert a certain level of control over us.
Your own parents failed to meet your needs as you grew, in many ways that should have instilled a plan in your life to not follow the same mistakes and be stronger for yourself. So many people realise their own upbringing was horrible, so they never let it happen to their family, I know we are all different.
Your father not being there for you is not Toxic Masculinity, it's abandonment ! And as said above, you were NOT the Toxic one in your relationship with your wife, those so called "friends" were !
You can be the best dad they are ever going to have, even if sometimes you feel like you are not doing enough, you can always ask us on here for some form of advice or just to chat and hear a different point of view. If your boys are struggling, just help them in any way you can, no one can ask any more of you than that.
Now. we come to the part that is currently one of the biggest problems that I have noticed for American men and the so called "women" they date. I have watched so many video's of this, it makes me feel sick and so annoyed.
The Three Sixes. Men get F'd over for supposedly being toxic ! Well these women are so far up their own butts it's a joke, so many of them claim they are a 10, when a 4 would be pushing it in many cases, the level of entitlement is a piss take, if you want to talk about Toxic Femininity, we have already started. Al this 6 foot, 6 pack abs and 6 figure income, what a load of cods wallop (another word for BS), I call that arrogant presumption when so many of these women think they are worth mega millions and that ANY man is there to treat them like a queen (dream on girls), very few of you are worth that level of self entitlement, if the only thing you are bringing is your over sized ass to the table, you have lost before you started.
Many women in other countries know how to treat their husband and if the relationship works, then I hope they have many happy years together.
You were a definite victim of Toxic Femininity, but you are NOT a perpetrator of Toxic Masculinity from what I have read and seen through your words, why are you labelling yourself with that trope when all you did was encourage your wife to obtain her Masters Degree, many people in relationships do that for each other or the one that wants to better themselves educationally.
You are not an imperfect parent, you do your best with the skills you obtained from your life, that doesn't make you a bad person or Father, you can trace that back to your own parents. Sorry to say this, but your wife was a fool for listening to those bloody harpies while doing her Masters. We are all here to learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others that cross our path, everything in life happens for a reason.
You, are the best person that you can be, you are a wonderful father and don't let anyone take that away from you. Life is shite at times, but with the help of others, you can get through it and become a stronger version of who you are now.
As men, we need to open up to each other more and listen, ask questions if something is not being understood, value the true friendship that men can have, whether that be as the best friends ever or even a real bromance. You don't need validation from women to define yourself as a man, other men can and will help you achieve that.
I know that you don't know me, but I don't see where you should be accepting so called blame for A Toxicity that was forced onto you by others, it was and is not who you are. Define yourself on YOUR terms, if some don't like it, then they can sod off !
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