I spend at least 1 month out of 12 per year living nude in a naturist village, I dont see your view of naturism echoed by anyone else in that place.
If you spent the other 11 months living in other nudist or naturist settings, would all of them hold the same views? In the little I've traveled from the West to the East coasts of the US to the saunas and nudist parks in Europe, I've seen an incredible diversity of what constitutes nudism or naturism. But I'm just learning.
I think this is an excellent point. Here are examples of what I found when I looked up the definition of nudism:nudism (n-di-zm)1.the practice of going nude especially in sexually mixed groups and during periods of time spent at specially secluded places2.the activity of wearing no clothes because you believe that wearing no clothes is healthy3.the practice of not wearing any clothes on beaches and other areas specially set aside for this purpose.4.going without clothes as a social practiceTo insist that "nudism" must include or absolutely cannot include any of these extraneous details outside the definition of nudism for the purpose of personal gain is indeed gaslighting.
I noticed that non of your definitions come from actual nudist sources. To which external details do you refer. Wearing cock rings and overt sexual behavior and then crying victim and self expression when called out. Let me say that I am around nudists of all ages 3/4 of the years and have been to different resorts and dont see any of that. Further more I have nothing to gain by calling this stuff out. I call it out because we are slowing looking the public clothing optional spaces that many sacrificed and worked hard to build to this kind of situation of sexual "self expression".
I would like another generation to actually have to opportunity to enjoy those spaces and if the gaslighting of a few continues then the few places that exist in the US will continue to dismiss until they are all gone. In places where naturism is growing in Europe the UK etc these debate are not happening and the gaslighting is readily shut down.
I think this is an excellent point. Here are examples of what I found when I looked up the definition of nudism:nudism (n-di-zm)1.the practice of going nude especially in sexually mixed groups and during periods of time spent at specially secluded places2.the activity of wearing no clothes because you believe that wearing no clothes is healthy3.the practice of not wearing any clothes on beaches and other areas specially set aside for this purpose.4.going without clothes as a social practiceTo insist that "nudism" must include or absolutely cannot include any of these extraneous details outside the definition of nudism for the purpose of personal gain is indeed gaslighting.I noticed that non of your definitions come from actual nudist sources. To which external details do you refer. Wearing cock rings and overt sexual behavior and then crying victim and self expression when called out. Let me say that I am around nudists of all ages 3/4 of the years and have been to different resorts and dont see any of that. Further more I have nothing to gain by calling this stuff out. I call it out because we are slowing looking the public clothing optional spaces that many sacrificed and worked hard to build to this kind of situation of sexual "self expression".I would like another generation to actually have to opportunity to enjoy those spaces and if the gaslighting of a few continues then the few places that exist in the US will continue to dismiss until they are all gone. In places where naturism is growing in Europe the UK etc these debate are not happening and the gaslighting is readily shut down.
My view is that while some of the more extreme members of the naturist community are rude and pushy, that is not exclusive to any group, or person. It's not gaslighting when you don't actually have a relationship with the strangers you meet online. I actually value the honesty and the consistency of that stance, because it tells me where I am welcome and where I am not. I don't agree with the stance taken here as "normative" on a theoretical and practical level for me, but I also don't have a problem with clubs and club members deciding on a way to behave and expecting all to follow as long as it is well explained and understood. If I was invited to those places I would either decline, or accept and follow the rules to the letter. The same way I did when they were invited to join our Pride parade march (actually insisted and let us pay the fees for them), my group was above reproach in public, moreso even, but that is how I run events that include an audience and mixed company. They even had the audacity to question Pride and our private all male adults only events coinciding because the words "sex positive event" were included (the parade was advertised as strictly naturist, pre vetting and group norms established, and enforced). I got told that even suggesting that sex wouldn't be stigmatized in a legal, all male, all adult private party with rules that change for each event and signed on to before access privately advertised was unacceptable to them and that I needed to change it (It was not advertised as a nudist or naturist event, I took us out of the federation after my first meeting with the exec by phone because the demands and accusations were ludicrous). Yet I still permitted them to march for free with us at Pride, gave them water and gatorade (they had nothing to drink in the baking heat), offered first aid and put up with their criticisms. Why?
Because I took our membership from 33 to 450 in less than two years. I revitalized 7 events a month and made them smash successes. I rebuilt relationships with businesses, the city and organizations all over NA, and I took the privacy, the integrity and the equal treatment of all to another level, and I didn't care what the group with the declining membership and laclk of vision had to say about any of it. I also purged the members that had come from their group surreptitiously and who had anonymous or illegal under the act memberships that entitled them to benefits and voting rights without any legal address or identification, of which there were several. Our encryption and privacy protocols were on the same level as the major banks. Our bylaws were rewritten to the legal standards of organizations ten times the size or more. We donated over 20 thousand dollars to charities open to naturism and nudism from events that were free, and at most 7 dollars for members. I quit when my partner did, with regrets.
Let them complain and disparage. Let them have their spaces and try to run mine or yours without any authority or invitation, and work to the highest ethical and professional standards to deliver an experience that is superior and positive in every way. I know that I am right. Let anyone say otherwise, they can. And let them look foolish as these people did.
If you spent the other 11 months living in other nudist or naturist settings, would all of them hold the same views? In the little I've traveled from the West to the East coasts of the US to the saunas and nudist parks in Europe, I've seen an incredible diversity of what constitutes nudism or naturism. But I'm just learning.
Ah, sorry.
I need to travel more and have more experience.
One day, it may be many many many years, decades perhaps. But I know truly, one day Ill find one other naturist that has similar views to you.
So far, the thousands weve met from hundreds of different countries and cultures will have to wait for us to discover the real meaning of naturism.
What is an interpretation of nudist history. Either is is history or its not. Is it logical them to say that we have have different interpretations of the history of WWII?I am confused by your comment please enlighten me. My reference to glass lighting was very specific as it relates to the way nudism is portrayed today online. I am not sure how your comment about the history of nudism fits but I am eager to understand.
Sorry about the confusion. I agree that the historical record itself, with facts that can be verified, is a standard to which all true historians aspire. What I meant to point out is that some people look at the historical record, with the establishment of nudist clubs in Europe at the turn of the last century, and interpret that as the basis of what they consider the One True Way of Naturism, with its rejection of alcohol and tobacco and its stress on physical sports. They consider that narrow lens as their interpretation, and would have you believe that all other forms of naturism are aberrant.
Others respect that heritage but don't feel that it necessarily applies to them. They are the ones who point out that nude beaches have existed before the establishment of those clubs, and feel that there is no conflict between naturism and alcoholic beverages or tobacco. They will have you believe that this is the One True Way for all naturists/nudists to follow.
There are the ones who believe that there is no room for clothing optional spaces. In a nudist environment, one should be completely nude at any time that weather permits. They repudiate any other interpretation of naturism.
And then there are the ones that point out that nudity and sex have co-existed in a common space for ages, and there is no conflict with nakedness and social sex, with all its trappings such as provocative jewelry and clothing and other adornments. They will tell you that their way has a seat at the naturist/nudist table, too.
All of these people claim to have history on their side. Whether they believe that themselves is an open question, but their attempts to convert people to their cause is quite apparent.
The key point of gaslighting is that the perpetrators would have you believe in a reality that they themselves don't believe. I think there a lot of people in the above categories who propose an alternate reality not necessarily because they themselves believe that reality is a fact, but because they wish that their aspirations would become a reality.
I choose not to use any examples from politics because I knew it would sidetrack the conversation and sure enough. Since I started the thread I can say again this is about gaslighting in nudism online. If you want examples just peruse the sex and sexuality category to see people who try to force anyone trying to enjoy simple non sexual social nudity to have to endure there sexual "self expression"Their approach is to create a narrative that says anyone who is for non sexual social nudity is a prude, asexual, old and out of touch etc All in the effort to peruse their own self interested sexual proclivities regardless of who might be impacted. So they make themselves out to be victims of discrimination and suggest they are the ones being harmed. While their "self expression" creates a negative view of actual nudism and pushes more true nudists further away from broader acceptance of the way of life.Dont need to bring this to the political realm to find example and devolve into cra cra just look at what is going on right here on this site and then elsewhere in nudist circles online.
But don't confuse 'rhetoric' as gaslighting - many people believe what they are telling you (even if it is agenda laden) to be true. In the stage play that the term Gaslighting is derived from the husband who knows that he is turning the lights down to make his wife believe she is blind, but at no stage does he believe she is actually blind....
I find a lot of turn of phrase and expressions such as this to get hijacked and contorted to mean something other than what they mean.
It's hysterical to me that you made this thread! So pressed that your circular arguments fall flat when it's pointed out that you're pushing your subjective opinions as fact and that I, rightfully, accused you of trying to gaslight/gatekeep the community that you've dedicated a thread about it. So desperate for some form of validation for your "me vs them" nonsense as you try helplessly to paint yourself as some guru on the subject.
A little nuance would help you. So would being humble. A las, I expect neither. Just more of...how did you word it? "...misleading and misguiding misinformation to serve their own interests."
I hope your next bad dream is just seeing a sale on body jewelry in a store that advertises itself as nudist accepting with LGBT+ flags everywhere.
I hope your next bad dream is just seeing a sale on body jewelry in a store that advertises itself as nudist accepting with LGBT+ flags everywhere.
Again your response fails to address the question but is there gaslighting online or not. You equate gaslighting and gatekeeping. To paraphrase a character from Princess Bride. "I do not think that means what you think it means"
Instead responding to the issue I raise you end up with wishes for bad dreams how interesting is that. Well let me put your mind at rest people like you dont take up space in my head. I dont have dreams about genital jewelry or anyones genitals they way you suggest. I have enough real life nudist relationships and a real life relationship that I dont have to dream about it. Maybe you have to dream about such things but then own that instead of projecting.
If you knew what you were talking about you wouldnt make the LGBTQIA inference. I wont justify it with a response. .
However since it is clear that you cant justify your beliefs or behavior I am not surprised. So typical of your ilk. Cant form a response to an opposing point so you resort to slurs, generalizations and such.
Keeping trying maybe some day your efforts at trying to diminish any opposing view will land with some consequence but not today.
It's hysterical to me that you made this thread! So pressed that your circular arguments fall flat when it's pointed out that you're pushing your subjective opinions as fact and that I, rightfully, accused you of trying to gaslight/gatekeep the community that you've dedicated a thread about it. So desperate for some form of validation for your "me vs them" nonsense as you try helplessly to paint yourself as some guru on the subject.A little nuance would help you. So would being humble. A las, I expect neither. Just more of...how did you word it? "...misleading and misguiding misinformation to serve their own interests."I hope your next bad dream is just seeing a sale on body jewelry in a store that advertises itself as nudist accepting with LGBT+ flags everywhere.
I've found this thread very insightful, especially for the broad range of views it's generated, including yours. Whereas gaslighting is rightly pointed out to be related to personal dynamics of control through nuance and shaming, gatekeeping in the nudist community is leading to its decline, at least at resorts. Kids (including my sons, now 18 and 20) who didn't grow up with an adult woman to chaperone them past nudist gates will avoid resorts as adults to find other ways to to socialize without clothes. Nudist gatekeeping is driven by "me vs. them," claiming that discrimination is necessary because of how "they" behave, then saying standards of conduct or behavior are too onerous to define or enforce, and finally settling for the free market model that resorts can make rules they like since it's their business. Meanwhile the world moves on.
As a straight-identifying middle aged man, it's hard for me to define exactly how the LGBT+ community puts a more humane face on nudism. Maybe it's enough to be let past the gates despite being a single male. I can't say the body jewelry, illusive but raptly discussed erections or play rooms are a draw. But if I'm welcome, not judged and free to be myself as long as I'm respectful of others as they're respectful of me, it comes together. That nudist accepting body jewelry store with LGBT+ flags is like more the future of nudism that the current resort business model. Fly those flags freely, not that the LGBT+ community has taken over, but more that the straight old-school orthodox nudists have opted out. And all shall be well.
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