These are the people who give nudism a bad name. If i would have experienced this during my first experience with social nudism I wouldn't participate in social nudism again or be very reluctant in doing so.
I have to jump on the "Reality is out there too" bandwagon. Definitions aside, Nudrunr completely missed the calling of SOCIAL nudism. Fine, nudists like to be nude, we get that. But why do you want to be nude with others? Well, that takes ALL types. I am neither a gawker nor a wanker but I wouldsay that I am a bit of avoyeur and an exhibitionist because I like to see and be seen. I don't in any way appreciate guys who victimize women. I wish nude venues could screen them out entirely. To want to see is not necessarily to stare at crotches. It certainly isn't for me. And one reason I like to be seen is to promote the happy enjoyment I get in just being naked in nature. I appreciate a beautiful woman as much as the next guy, and hey, I'm pretty sure they like to be appreciated. Some work very hard at looking their best. There really is room for all kinds, as long as they show and engender respect. I'm not a saint, and I don't really enjoy hanging with the type either. I'd rather spend my time with human beings, and just a little bit of "naughty" runs through the veins of all of those that I've met so far.
I think Fatpizzaman does have a point here. True, if you take a narrow clinical definition of exhibitionism and voyeurism, these traits are rarely observed in nudist settings. But there's certainly a lot of inappropriate behaviour going on. Some of the things I've seen at the clothes-optional section of Brighton's public beach include: a M/F couple having penetrative sex, M/M couples fondling each others genitals, guys walking around with erections, lone female sunbathers rapidly being surrounded by half a dozen gawkers, including guys who plonk themselves a couple of metres away and stare at her pubic area while openly masturbating. You can say that these people aren't genuine nudists, but that would indeed be to commit the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
I see what you and fatpizzaman are saying, but I think the point here is that there is a misconception in the textile world that nudism/naturism equates to exhibitionism/voyuerism. And until that myth is expelled nudism will never be given true merit in the textile world. There will always be a percentage of deviants in any given "lifestyle", but the need to correct the fallacy that ALL nudists are deviants is important. Frankly, I've seen more "unacceptable" behaviour in textile venues than I have seen in nudist venues, mainly because the majority of nudists have zero tolerance for behavior that will set back their choice to be nude.
Jen
I think Fatpizzaman does have a point here. True, if you take a narrow clinical definition of exhibitionism and voyeurism, these traits are rarely observed in nudist settings. But there's certainly a lot of inappropriate behaviour going on. Some of the things I've seen at the clothes-optional section of Brighton's public beach include: a M/F couple having penetrative sex, M/M couples fondling each others genitals, guys walking around with erections, lone female sunbathers rapidly being surrounded by half a dozen gawkers, including guys who plonk themselves a couple of metres away and stare at her pubic area while openly masturbating. You can say that these people aren't genuine nudists, but that would indeed be to commit the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
Simply observing that recreational sex and exhibitionist conduct is not mainstream nudist behavior I feel is taking neither a narrow or clinical perspective. Couples engaging in public sex as you described having observed at Brightons beach clothes optional section certainly does not fall within the definition of traditional naturism. My original point was in fact that the focus for nudists is simply the enjoyment of being nude not on the achievement of sexual gratification.
I do agree with Fatpizzamans point that nudists as a whole may not be pure, holier than textiles types. We all, whether nudists or textiles are produced from one society and of course taken as a group in its entirety, are no more virtuous or moral than any other separate segment that one might care to examine. Different people have different motivations for engaging in social nudity as I observed in my original post. For those of us who identity with naturism, it is the simple pleasures that come from being nude in a communal setting. For the alternative lifestylers it is recreational sex. So I do take issue with: In a nutshell, this sort of lip-service and candy coating our lifestyle does no favours to help it gain respect from the outside world when/if somebody was to come across nudists like this. The idea that traditional naturists or nudists should accept people who engage in penetrative sex and fondling in a public place as legitimate nudist expression is preposterous. Clearly this kind of conduct transcends any sense of the sort and just as clearly falls within the bounds of lewdness. Not only should we not regard those who engage in this conduct as genuine nudists, I feel we have an obligation to confront people who engage in this kind of behavior because that in fact is truly something that does our lifestyle no favors and causes the textile community to look upon nudists with disfavor and hostility.
I agree that there is some degree of exhibitionism and voyeurism within the genuine nudist community, but it is generally of a harmless variety. Mild feelings of enjoying others seeing us nude or in seeing others nude I dont feel is a huge problem as long as that is not the primary focus. And I am not attempting to take swingers to task as far as condemning their interest in recreational sex. I just maintain that they should restrict their activities to appropriate venues and not engage in it on public clothing optional beaches. Tolerating such activities invites the scrutiny of the textile community, their disgust and ultimate opposition towards all nudists. The average member of the textile community does not differentiate between naturists and those who get naked in public with less altruistic motivations, we all get tarred by the same brush. My original point stands, exhibitionism and voyeurism, when the focus on sexual arousal and gratification, is not genuine nudist behavior or a part of our lifestyle.
I think we have here two separate issues. One is what goes on in reality in nude environment and is within acceptable there - and what again is not. Another is the need to convince textiles about "normality" of nude community and what kind of information to hand out - or to dement - in that regard. No doubt it is a difficult task if internally there is a need to emphasize a bit different aspects (mainly how to keep the "pervs" out and which are the limits of acceptable public nude behaviour) than externally (nudity is same kind of pastime than what textiles do, only difference is abstinence of attire). And there we come even within the community to some contradictory things. Some people like to emphasize the "asexuality" of nude lifestyle, wheras there are others who like to bring out more open and natural attitude towards things that sexual.
I guess we nevertheless can agree that to our community fit all people who enjoy nude lifestyle and recreation in a way that is not offensive towards others, no matter what their personal preferences might be.
On the other hand to outside world there is need to emphasize that nudies are just like anyone, except for the preference of clothes-free life.
Travel Nudie aka Aki
Hey!
That reminds me of that song from the 70s by Five Man Electrical Band
And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
I loved that song.
Yes, that's where it came from. This thread reminded me of the song. There are so many rules because everyone has different opinions. Someone has to be right and everyone else is wrong. Presumably everyone here likes to be naked as much as possible. Why can't we all agree to disagree sometimes and get along the rest of the time?
I like your thinking Just Friends. I think you are probably right on the money. I'll go for a 25,25, 50 split. Mostly it's about just being out there, comfortable and cool. I hatesweating into my clothes. When I'm at home, with my kids, I couldn't care less about being seen or seeing, but when I'm out on the trail or at a club, there is something strangely alluring just knowing you're eliciting reactions to your uncovered bod. It's just something we don't get much of in a textile community.
I have to again add my two cents. Nudrunr states that "Nudists do not impose their bareness on others but choose venues such as naturist resorts or nude beaches where they can enjoy being nude without being observed by those who might be offended by nudity."
Where does he get this stuff? Since when is this the definition (if we even need one) of a nudist? I, andmany others here, have been 'caught in the buff' by neighbours, friends and strangers while engaged in nothing but being nude. What are we? Something OTHER than a nudist? Is Nudrunr an expert here or has his limited experience with social nudism (2 months and counting) given him insight that we 35 year veterans lack?
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