Replies
- ST
May 20, 2024Homosapian was first coined in 1758, but Im pretty sure weve been around a bit longer than that.
ReactReply - STMay 20, 2024
Homosapian was first coined in 1758, but Im pretty sure weve been around a bit longer than that.
ReactReply - BA
May 20, 2024Having no expertise in Greek statuary or the early historical basis of Christian morality (but more power to those that have!) all I can say is, yes Steve, I have felt and was drawn by that feeling of self-control, not only of body but definitely of mind as well. It feels as if discipline of character provides more space for a fuller appreciation of more than one's sexual self. (Not that that need be fully suppressed, just quieted unless and until sparked by deeper, more personal connections.) This is what is at odds with the nudism-is-for-cruising-for-sex crowd.
ReactReply - SU
May 20, 2024Steve, Andy and bairskyn raise great points about nudity and self-control as we find it in Greek art. But for the Greeks nudity had multiple meanings, most connected, strange for us to imagine, to notions of the sacred. Gods and heroes are often represented naked to indicate their immortal status and their origins in ancestral time-space. Athletes in the great games competed naked in order to resemble them and honor them. Even everyday Greek men exercising in the gymnasium were imitating these sacred figures to some degree. On the other hand Greek vases can also depict satyrs (half-human, half-goat), buddies of Dionysus, engaging in every sexual act possible, often w huge erect penises. This was for laughs, for arousal of the drinkers at symposiums (drinking parties), but also under the sacred shadow of Dionysus, god of exuberance (musical, alcoholic, sexual, make-believe). These vases also show ordinary Greek men and women sometimes performing sexually at drinking parties: this is the other side of self-control, its opposite, but also under the influence of the gods ability to make folks behave beyond the limits. Pretty confusing stuff!
ReactReply - WO
May 20, 2024And it's worth noting that the female pudendal cleft was almost entirely absent in classic Greek and Roman sculpture. I suspect that the artists were going toward a more idealized figure that downplayed those parts of the body that were devoted to reproduction. And while male genitalia can't be totally dispensed with, the artist could minimize it... yeah, he's a guy, but it's the rest of the anatomy that's important.
As been noted above, the only time you see prominent male genitalia in art of that period is when it's intended to be erotic.
ReactReply - STSteveinKonaOriginal PosterMay 20, 2024In the modern world, it seems to be something to take satisfaction / pride in if one has the ability to be aroused when appropriate - but satisfaction / pride in the ability NOT to be aroused when that's appropriate to circumstance seems to get taken as prudery. Aren't both true? On this site, one hears over and over again more or less "I can't control my body". Which - channeling my inner ancient Greek - would seem to be an indication you've got work to do on yourself. Anyway, my conjecture is that there's a littlefrissonof satisfaction / pride in successfully managing nudity in nonsexual contexts, to the point that people will seek those contexts out partly for that feeling.ReactReply
- HO
May 20, 2024Steve - you raise a point of great interest to me. I have always been confounded by the notion promoted by some that the only bodily function that seems consistentky uncontrollable is male arousal. It begs the question, is it the body function that isn't being controlled or is it the behavior of the individual? [quote]On this site, one hears over and over again more or less "I can't control my body". Which - channeling my inner ancient Greek - would seem to be an indication you've got work to do on yourself. [/quote]ReactReply - HOMay 20, 2024
IMO much of the historical Greek practice of nudity is misunderstood or misinterpreted today. For example recent historical references suggest the participants in Greek Olympics as a whole were not naked. Only the penultimate event the sprint was done naked so as to avoid the restrictions to movement that came with the kind of clothing worn.
Another point is that there were very specific rules around nudity in Greek society and general nakedness was a sign of enslavement. Finally the practice of any social nudity in Greek society originated with their adoption of the practice observed from the gymnosophists or naked philosophers that Alexander encountered in his conquest of India. It did not emerge from within Greek society.
Just a couple thoughts on this subject as it relates to the historical and current nudist ethos.
ReactReply - MI
May 21, 2024Agreed. I have read the same in many places.
I have also read that coaches and trainers were also nude and athletes also trained and received their awards nude.ReactReply - ZE
May 21, 2024Fascinating thread - please continue since I have little knowledge of this other than enjoying Greek history. I sat at the original stadium on Mt Olympus in Greece and was enthralled by the fact that a millennia ago another person sat exactly where I was sitting and watched the very first Olympic games with naked athletes. Was amazing to feel the stone seat under me in a place and time that has been occupied by hundreds if not thousands before me.
ReactReply - MIMay 21, 2024[quote]And it's worth noting that the female pudendal cleft was almost entirely absent in classic Greek and Roman sculpture. I suspect that the artists were going toward a more idealized figure that downplayed those parts of the body that were devoted to reproduction. And while male genitalia can't be totally dispensed with, the artist could minimize it... yeah, he's a guy, but it's the rest of the anatomy that's important. As been noted above, the only time you see prominent male genitalia in art of that period is when it's intended to be erotic.[/quote] Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason.ReactReply
- HOMay 22, 2024
Chapter six of the book Therapy, nudity & joy : the therapeutic use of nudity through the ages, from ancient ritual to modern psychology from Aileen Goodson is a good reference resource IMO
ReactReply - STSteveinKonaOriginal PosterMay 22, 2024
Looks like a really worthwhile book. I've ordered a copy; book review to follow!
ReactReply - WOMay 23, 2024[quote] Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason.[/quote] Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.ReactReply
- HOMay 24, 2024If you are interested in sharing your review in the nude reads review section on my site let me know. [quote]Looks like a really worthwhile book. I've ordered a copy; book review to follow![/quote]ReactReply
- HOMay 24, 2024
You can find it on Abe Books and other used book site. It covers the emergence and brief history of the nude therapy movement.
ReactReply - MIMay 24, 2024[quote]Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason. Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.[/quote] True, I meant small in proportion to the size of the statue.ReactReply
- MIMay 24, 2024[quote]Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason. Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.[/quote] True, I meant small in proportion to the size of the statue.ReactReply
- HOMay 26, 2024Some additional historical perspective on athletic nudity in Greek from academia exploring the introduction of nudity in the Greek Olympic Games. The quote and the two papers by the same authors illustrate that nudity was notalwaysa part of the Olympics. In fact there were 15 Olympiads over 50 before the introduction of any nudity in the games. They suggest its introduction was utilitarian in nature. Not some high minded acceptance of public nudity, as is oft implied in current modern nudist mythology.Nudity at the Olympic Games was neither primitive nor original, by all accounts it was deliberately introduced around the l5th Olympiad or 720BCE, more than 50 years after the traditional founding of the Games.11 Before that, athletes presumably competed in loincloths (zomata) that covered their genitals, as they had in Homer's epics-our earliest written account of Greek athletics. Outside of sport and certain religious rituals, nudity was and always had been considered shameful in Greek societyInterestingly enough, explanations for the introduction of athletic nudity at the ancient Olympic Games include (l) performance enhancement and (2) safety. The 2nd c. CE travel writer Pausanias tells us that Orsippus of Megara initiated the practice by winning the footrace after losing his loincloth. "My own opinion," Pausanias adds, "is that at Olympia he intentionally let the girdie slip off him,realizing that a naked man can nm more easily than one girt."3 On the face of it, this story seems plausible since we commonly think of athletes as doing anything and everything to improve their performance. Dionysius of Halicarnassus concurs that the runner intentionally dropped his shorts, adding that before the incident Greeks were ashamed to appear naked at the Games.[url][link]/link/9b5f8217eabc64d9/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWNhZGVtaWEuZWR1Lzc5MDUxODc3L0FuY2llbnRfQXRobGV0aWNfTnVkaXR5X2FuZF90aGVfT2x5bXBpY19FdGhvc19vZl9BcmV0ZQ%3D%3D[/link]Ancient Athletic Nudity and the Olympic Ethos of Arete[/url] [url][link]/link/5e444ebe4c19a69b/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWNhZGVtaWEuZWR1LzYxODY4NDMyL05ha2VkX1ZpcnR1ZV9BbmNpZW50X0F0aGxldGljX051ZGl0eV9hbmRfdGhlX09seW1waWNfRXRob3Nfb2ZfQXJldCVDNCU5Mw%3D%3D[/link] Naked Virtue: Ancient Athletic Nudity and the Olympic Ethos of Arete[/url]ReactReply
- HOMay 26, 2024Another view posited but the authors of the papers suggests that because the games were more religious festival that athletic competition the introduction of nudity was in homage to the Greek gods.It seems plausible, in light of such ritual, that athletic nudity was introduced into the Olympic Games in religious imitation of gods and heroes. The connection is powerfully illustrated in Greek art by the many "god or athlete" statues, which appear about the same time as athletic nudity.3l The very first of these werekouroi, 7th century BCE images ranging from small bronze figurines to larger-than-life statues (their female counterparts, like female athletes, wear clothing).While the authors provide no definitive reason or origin for introduction of nudity to Olympics they suggest it was tied to a communal ethos the ethos of Arte. The ethos of Arte represented certain shared communal values and virtues. This reflects a great similarity adherence to communal virtues and values expressed in early naturist movements like Lebensreform and FKK. One theme seems to emerge from this exploration is Greek nudity was deeply connected to social mores, norms and values. The papers suggest nudity was never just for the sake of individual nakedness but had ethical, philosophical, religious, communal and even democratic purpose.ReactReply
- MIMay 26, 2024[quote]Another view posited but the authors of the papers suggests that because the games were more religious festival that athletic competition the introduction of nudity was in homage to the Greek gods. It seems plausible, in light of such ritual, that athletic nudity was introduced into the Olympic Games in religious imitation of gods and heroes. The connection is powerfully illustrated in Greek art by the many "god or athlete" statues, which appear about the same time as athletic nudity.3l The very first of these werekouroi, 7th century BCE images ranging from small bronze figurines to larger-than-life statues (their female counterparts, like female athletes, wear clothing). While the authors provide no definitive reason or origin for introduction of nudity to Olympics they suggest it was tied to a communal ethos the ethos of Arte. The ethos of Arte represented certain shared communal values and virtues. This reflects a great similarity adherence to communal virtues and values expressed in early naturist movements like Lebensreform and FKK. One theme seems to emerge from this exploration is Greek nudity was deeply connected to social mores, norms and values. The papers suggest nudity was never just for the sake of individual nakedness but had ethical, philosophical, religious, communal and even democratic purpose.[/quote] How does the practice of all nude exercising and athletic training and some nude academic education fit into this concept?ReactReply
- HOMay 26, 2024The word you may have missed in the OP is ethos [quote] How does the practice of all nude exercising and athletic training and some nude academic education fit into this concept?[/quote]ReactReply
- OL
Jul 11, 2024Nice to have a lesson on Ancient Greek Behavior.
When I was 8 I was sent to a private boarding school in England.
Once the children who didn't board went home, we turned into a nudist camp " boys only " we swam naked, had baths and showers naked, went to the Gym and got fit naked. On swimming sports day I was shocked when we competed in front of the Parents and Teachers naked. My poor shrunken genitals would have pleased the sculptures. I do however feel there would have been a slow evolution of social and political behaviour which molded the Greeks thru the ages .
By the time the Romans became the big influence and moral compass
orgies became popular with dinner or bath time . Nudity with sex seemed to have been tolerated.
There's always someone that ruins it for everyone . Not the One God people, of course not!! How many crusades over how many hundreds of years?
My personal opinion is; We have lost the natural side of life and replaced it with an artificial- "natural " asexual form of naturism that seems to have rules about every little suggestion of sex or pictures of peoples
penises that are too prominent or engorged. People can still be discreet and have their private moments away from public scrutiny. As sex should be a healthy part of everyones lives.
It's taken me 50yrs to come to terms with childhood sexual abuse , those abuses often came via the church whose moral compass was extremely questionable . They promoted nakedness as a cleansing ,
'Baptism in water '
Or a humiliating descent into shame and guilt.
Shame on them for bringing us to today in a state of Anxiety, confusion, abandonment and so much shame
.. Good luck to one and all.ReactReply