The decline of naturism
There is THIS very active TN member, an Aussi named Vince, who writes very lovely posts. I almost never look at my timeline but when I do I read them, they are thoughtful and (almost) as long as my own posts. I like that. I like guys who take the time to smell the flowers, think OF non-sexual, non-politic and non-sports things and take the time to put their thoughts in writing.
In a recent post, he draws the conclusion that the decline of naturism is due to two factors: the search for profit of nudist venues and their discrimination against single guys and LGBT. I should reply to his post but this will be a long one, so better lodge it here.
First, a confidence. Unlike Vince, I am not a true naturist. I came to social nudity because my man loved it and I discovered the pleasure of sun, water, heat and steam on my naked skin. Shy at first, I discovered afterwards that, as long as this is done in an elegant manner, there is nothing wrong in allowing people to admire my skin, either entirely exposed or highlighted by elegant, vaporous outfits. I was blessed with nice shapes and skin which people enjoy looking at so where is the problem.
But I was never attracted by those long, naked trekkings which Vince seems to enjoy so much. I see no interest in exposing all my skin, sensitive bits included, for a full day to the scorching sun, to ticks, spikes, branches and sharp rocks... And I'm not even speaking here of doing this in a country where every single living being seems intent to poison, kill or maim you like Australia. But yes, put me on a beach, in the sea or in a spa and I'll immediately have the irrepressible urge to take everything off.
Now I don't know what the situation is in Australia but I don't believe that in Europe the obvious decline of naturism is due to the pesky resort owners who look too much at their own bottom line (no pun intended; ok, a small one maybe) and exclude poor guys and LGBT.
I am of the belief that there are societal trends which announce the demise of naturism. I'll call out three of them, agnosticism, individualism and short-termism.
Agnosticism - no, not really in the religious term but rather a loss of ideals and of ideologies. Naturism appeared in the late 19th century, when the world population was 1.5 billion, as FKK, an ideology, a utopia even where people would be free, close to nature, living in small, mostly agricultural and closely-knit communities and exposing all their skin to the elements, sun, rain and fresh air - and yes, to the eyes of the others. Interestingly enough, a healthy, happy and closely knit population living in Jeffersonian-style communities was also Hitler's ideal and his drive towards "Lebensraum" (vital space) towards the Eastern areas, populated by Untermaensch Eastern Slavs.
Far later, the hippy movement had a similar ideology, striving to lead to a free life made of love and fresh air where nudity is normalised and adepts live close to nature and to each other. Both the FKK and the hippy movements were full ideologies - I would actually call them non-theist religions- based on the fundamental belief that human beings are essentially good, that they can organise themselves in small, happy groups living close to nature and loving each other, and that it's the big cities, money and government which corrupts them.
What happened since?
Of course, we do know now that long exposure to sunlight is not good for your health - but this is a minor element of answer, I believe. Of course, we are now 8 billion and the Earth is likely already not large enough to allow all of us to live close to and in harmony with nature.
But beyond this, our societies have lost their hope in a better world which is not brought about by more money. Money is the new golden calf, whatever is left of the three old monotheist religions has become cartoonish and people do the opposite of what their religion teaches them to do. This is particularly obvious for Christians, but Muslims and Jews are in the same boat. The New Testament calls for you to forgive and turn the other cheek, not to destroy a half dozen countries for a minor event committed by 15 individuals unrelated to those countries. The Old Testament, cruel as it is, calls for eye for an eye, not to kill 100 members of the community of him who made you lose an eye.
Individualism made us raise high fences in front of our neighbours and consider more and more of our life as private. Sharing our money with our friends is a laughable proposal so why would we share our nudity? We no longer need our families knit together, we no longer need their members to take care of us during our sickness or old age, we ask all this from the Government. Because paradoxically, increased individualism went hand in hand with decreasing liberalism. Now this is a paradox, isn't it. We have surrendered so much of our freedom to Government in exchange of more security that soon we are likely to lose both freedom and security. History repeating itself. We only agree with freedom of speech for those who agree with us - which incidentally was also the position of Hitler and Stalin. Thin skin, thick hubris and a will to destroy all who oppose us is not what naturism was about.
Short termism makes us discount the future at an alarming pace. We want it all and we want it now. We want entertainment and we want tomorrow to be richer than today. The whole economic model of our Empire is based on the bicycle one: if you stop, you fall. It may become informational tomorrow, but today our economic model is financial, based on the assumption that statistically if you lend money to a borrower, he will be able tomorrow to pay it back with an interest. If economy stops growing interest becomes zero, the financial system collapses and with it so does our economic model. We claim that we care about the planet but we want a bigger car, a bigger house, travel farther and farther and wage war against whoever the Establishment tells us to hate.
Did we become more prude? By we, I mean mostly us, women, who are the bottleneck of nudism. Is what was before an act of rebellion and emancipation now a freebee of something with commercial value, which we could trade for cash in face of a photographer, aka our nudity? I don't know. On the one hand, in my teens, 20 or so years ago, almost all girls and young women on the beach were topless and, French ladies being mostly small breasted, the vast majority didn't even own bras. Today, toplessness is rather exceptional, I see it here and there. On the other hand, I don't have the impression that young ladies are very prude if I were to judge by the number of them who visit German spas. Ok, young ones like Sinsheim in particular.
Did nudist resorts become expensive? Sure. Are Mom-and-Pop small naturist hide-aways disappearing and only frequented by an aging population? Sure. The Instagram generation needs fun and has the attention span of a Cocker Spaniel (ok, I'm among them, true, and I'm probably guilty as charged). They are not interested in resorts where the only fun is shooting arrows, throwing petanque balls or grunting up trekking trails, just because this is done in the nude. They don't want to eat soup, meatballs and potatoes for one week. They want comfort and fun. And fun is expensive so yes, you have two types of resorts. Old ones which are dying and new ones where you can have fun for a price. Cap d'Agde is thriving, but most of the patrons are there for the sexual teasing, not the naturist side of nudism. Sinsheim is thriving, but that's because you can drink cocktails in the pool while hugging your naked relevant (for the life or for one evening) other.
Now the most delicate part. Did excluding single men and LGBT hurt the naturist movement? I'll start with a scandalous comparison: in finance, we know that bad coinage drives out good. In other words, if you have two currencies circulating in the same space, the good one (say gold) will soon be stored and replace by the bad one (say paper money). And yes, in nudism and naturism, men are the bad coinage.
Most men like nudism. If I were to guess, I'd say 70% of straight and 85% of gay men like seeing and being seen in the nude. Things are the opposite with ladies. Not going to go back to the evolutionary reasons and the cultural ones which only amplified them (you know that story, different reproductive strategies, men put 3 min and 5 ml of liquid, women put 5-7 years into the offspring). But yes, we ladies are shy, we are coy, we are taught to not show ourselves and our nudity has commercial value. So when we (seen as good coinage) are overwhelmed by men (bad coinage), we will have the tendency to withdraw. Once women disappear, straight men will lose, to a large extent, interest and will be replaced by gay men who on the contrary, will be seduced by the male-only setting.
A few years back we stopped by a German lake where there were lots of parked cars. It was nice and sure enough nudist and we stayed, although I could see only one other woman around. This year we stopped by at the same lake and it had become a 100% gay pickup place.
So this is for single men. As for LGBTQI, I suspect that most young people are OK with them and p I see lots (especially LGB) in Sinsheim. TQI remain rare but not shockingly rare - and don't seem to be discriminated against. But naturist venues are populated mostly by X and Y generations, who tend to be less inclusive so they may see LGBTQI as bad coinage and themselves as good one. What else is new, don't we all see ourselves as good coinage.
So here it is. I'm afraid that if you own a naturist venue and want to stay in business you either discriminate or become a gay venue. Which is fine, but most owners of naturist venues belong to older generations and have a tendency to apply labels and like certain forms of nudism and not others.
I know for a fact that nobody reads the entirety of my posts but for the few who have browsed and skipped to the end for the usual questions, what do you think? It is the fault of owners of naturist venues, who charge too much and discriminate against single men and LGBTQI, or a societal evolution which is behind the decline of naturism?
This post by FloraT Textile brings up many thought-provoking points about the state of naturism today and its decline. I'll summarise my response in a way that covers the key aspects she addresses:
1. The Societal Shifts:
FloraT correctly points out that broader societal changes, like increased individualism and short-termism, have contributed to the decline of naturism. People today are more focused on immediate gratification and privacy, while naturism is built around the idea of community, connection, and long-term benefits. The disconnect between these values and modern individualism is certainly a factor.
2. Agnosticism in Ideals:
The loss of ideals is another interesting observation. Historically, naturism wasnt just about nudity; it was about living close to nature, rejecting materialism, and embracing a healthier, more natural lifestyle. Without this utopian vision, naturism loses some of its appeal. This ideological shift is true, especially in an age where consumerism dominates, and the desire for a more natural, harmonious existence has been marginalised.
3. The Profit Motive of Venues:
While I agree with FloraTs analysis that broader societal trends are at play, I still stand by my original view that the exclusion of single men and the profit-driven nature of venues have exacerbated the decline. The high cost of attending naturist resorts, coupled with the exclusionary practices that target single men and sometimes the LGBTQI community, certainly contributes to making naturism less accessible.
4. Gender Imbalance and 'Bad Coinage':
FloraT's use of the "bad coinage" metaphor is quite sharp. There is indeed a gender imbalance in naturism, which can make women feel uncomfortable or overwhelmed, especially when single men outnumber women. Naturist venues that adopt stricter admission policies towards men are often trying to maintain a balance, but this strategy can backfire by excluding a large segment of potential participants. However, if the environment makes women feel less safe or comfortable, they naturally withdraw, and the movement suffers as a whole.
5. Commercialisation of Nudity:
Theres also an interesting observation here about how nudity is now often seen as something that has commercial value. Women, in particular, are often taught to think of their bodies as something to protect or monetise, whether through fashion, social media, or even more directly. This shift in mindset creates a barrier to the free expression of naturist values.
6. Venue Preferences:
As for LGBTQI discrimination, it may depend on location and venue. While more progressive venues, such as Sinsheim, are open to all, older venues with more conservative ownership may still exclude non-traditional participants. The growth of gay-specific venues can also create fragmentation within naturism, where these different communities end up isolated from each other instead of being part of a unified naturist movement.
Conclusion:
Both FloraT and I seem to agree that the decline of naturism is multifaceted. Societal changes, exclusionary practices by venues, and the commodification of nudity all contribute to this decline. The solution lies in fostering inclusivity, reducing barriers (both financial and social), and promoting the ideals of naturism in a way that resonates with modern society.
I would reply to this by emphasising the need for naturist spaces to adapt to societal changes, while still holding onto the core values of the movement: respect for nature, community, and body acceptance. The challenge lies in modernising without losing sight of these principles.
There is THIS very active TN member, an Aussi named Vince, who writes very lovely posts. I almost never look at my timeline but when I do I read them, they are thoughtful and (almost) as long as my own posts. I like that. I like guys who take the time to smell the flowers, think OF non-sexual, non-politic and non-sports things and take the time to put their thoughts in writing.In a recent post, he draws the conclusion that the decline of naturism is due to two factors: the search for profit of nudist venues and their discrimination against single guys and LGBT. I should reply to his post but this will be a long one, so better lodge it here.First, a confidence. Unlike Vince, I am not a true naturist. I came to social nudity because my man loved it and I discovered the pleasure of sun, water, heat and steam on my naked skin. Shy at first, I discovered afterwards that, as long as this is done in an elegant manner, there is nothing wrong in allowing people to admire my skin, either entirely exposed or highlighted by elegant, vaporous outfits. I was blessed with nice shapes and skin which people enjoy looking at so where is the problem.But I was never attracted by those long, naked trekkings which Vince seems to enjoy so much. I see no interest in exposing all my skin, sensitive bits included, for a full day to the scorching sun, to ticks, spikes, branches and sharp rocks... And I'm not even speaking here of doing this in a country where every single living being seems intent to poison, kill or maim you like Australia. But yes, put me on a beach, in the sea or in a spa and I'll immediately have the irrepressible urge to take everything off.Now I don't know what the situation is in Australia but I don't believe that in Europe the obvious decline of naturism is due to the pesky resort owners who look too much at their own bottom line (no pun intended; ok, a small one maybe) and exclude poor guys and LGBT.I am of the belief that there are societal trends which announce the demise of naturism. I'll call out three of them, agnosticism, individualism and short-termism.Agnosticism - no, not really in the religious term but rather a loss of ideals and of ideologies. Naturism appeared in the late 19th century, when the world population was 1.5 billion, as FKK, an ideology, a utopia even where people would be free, close to nature, living in small, mostly agricultural and closely-knit communities and exposing all their skin to the elements, sun, rain and fresh air - and yes, to the eyes of the others. Interestingly enough, a healthy, happy and closely knit population living in Jeffersonian-style communities was also Hitler's ideal and his drive towards "Lebensraum" (vital space) towards the Eastern areas, populated by Untermaensch Eastern Slavs.Far later, the hippy movement had a similar ideology, striving to lead to a free life made of love and fresh air where nudity is normalised and adepts live close to nature and to each other. Both the FKK and the hippy movements were full ideologies - I would actually call them non-theist religions- based on the fundamental belief that human beings are essentially good, that they can organise themselves in small, happy groups living close to nature and loving each other, and that it's the big cities, money and government which corrupts them.What happened since?Of course, we do know now that long exposure to sunlight is not good for your health - but this is a minor element of answer, I believe. Of course, we are now 8 billion and the Earth is likely already not large enough to allow all of us to live close to and in harmony with nature.But beyond this, our societies have lost their hope in a better world which is not brought about by more money. Money is the new golden calf, whatever is left of the three old monotheist religions has become cartoonish and people do the opposite of what their religion teaches them to do. This is particularly obvious for Christians, but Muslims and Jews are in the same boat. The New Testament calls for you to forgive and turn the other cheek, not to destroy a half dozen countries for a minor event committed by 15 individuals unrelated to those countries. The Old Testament, cruel as it is, calls for eye for an eye, not to kill 100 members of the community of him who made you lose an eye.Individualism made us raise high fences in front of our neighbours and consider more and more of our life as private. Sharing our money with our friends is a laughable proposal so why would we share our nudity? We no longer need our families knit together, we no longer need their members to take care of us during our sickness or old age, we ask all this from the Government. Because paradoxically, increased individualism went hand in hand with decreasing liberalism. Now this is a paradox, isn't it. We have surrendered so much of our freedom to Government in exchange of more security that soon we are likely to lose both freedom and security. History repeating itself. We only agree with freedom of speech for those who agree with us - which incidentally was also the position of Hitler and Stalin. Thin skin, thick hubris and a will to destroy all who oppose us is not what naturism was about.Short termism makes us discount the future at an alarming pace. We want it all and we want it now. We want entertainment and we want tomorrow to be richer than today. The whole economic model of our Empire is based on the bicycle one: if you stop, you fall. It may become informational tomorrow, but today our economic model is financial, based on the assumption that statistically if you lend money to a borrower, he will be able tomorrow to pay it back with an interest. If economy stops growing interest becomes zero, the financial system collapses and with it so does our economic model. We claim that we care about the planet but we want a bigger car, a bigger house, travel farther and farther and wage war against whoever the Establishment tells us to hate.Did we become more prude? By we, I mean mostly us, women, who are the bottleneck of nudism. Is what was before an act of rebellion and emancipation now a freebee of something with commercial value, which we could trade for cash in face of a photographer, aka our nudity? I don't know. On the one hand, in my teens, 20 or so years ago, almost all girls and young women on the beach were topless and, French ladies being mostly small breasted, the vast majority didn't even own bras. Today, toplessness is rather exceptional, I see it here and there. On the other hand, I don't have the impression that young ladies are very prude if I were to judge by the number of them who visit German spas. Ok, young ones like Sinsheim in particular.Did nudist resorts become expensive? Sure. Are Mom-and-Pop small naturist hide-aways disappearing and only frequented by an aging population? Sure. The Instagram generation needs fun and has the attention span of a Cocker Spaniel (ok, I'm among them, true, and I'm probably guilty as charged). They are not interested in resorts where the only fun is shooting arrows, throwing petanque balls or grunting up trekking trails, just because this is done in the nude. They don't want to eat soup, meatballs and potatoes for one week. They want comfort and fun. And fun is expensive so yes, you have two types of resorts. Old ones which are dying and new ones where you can have fun for a price. Cap d'Agde is thriving, but most of the patrons are there for the sexual teasing, not the naturist side of nudism. Sinsheim is thriving, but that's because you can drink cocktails in the pool while hugging your naked relevant (for the life or for one evening) other.Now the most delicate part. Did excluding single men and LGBT hurt the naturist movement? I'll start with a scandalous comparison: in finance, we know that bad coinage drives out good. In other words, if you have two currencies circulating in the same space, the good one (say gold) will soon be stored and replace by the bad one (say paper money). And yes, in nudism and naturism, men are the bad coinage.Most men like nudism. If I were to guess, I'd say 70% of straight and 85% of gay men like seeing and being seen in the nude. Things are the opposite with ladies. Not going to go back to the evolutionary reasons and the cultural ones which only amplified them (you know that story, different reproductive strategies, men put 3 min and 5 ml of liquid, women put 5-7 years into the offspring). But yes, we ladies are shy, we are coy, we are taught to not show ourselves and our nudity has commercial value. So when we (seen as good coinage) are overwhelmed by men (bad coinage), we will have the tendency to withdraw. Once women disappear, straight men will lose, to a large extent, interest and will be replaced by gay men who on the contrary, will be seduced by the male-only setting.A few years back we stopped by a German lake where there were lots of parked cars. It was nice and sure enough nudist and we stayed, although I could see only one other woman around. This year we stopped by at the same lake and it had become a 100% gay pickup place.So this is for single men. As for LGBTQI, I suspect that most young people are OK with them and p I see lots (especially LGB) in Sinsheim. TQI remain rare but not shockingly rare - and don't seem to be discriminated against. But naturist venues are populated mostly by X and Y generations, who tend to be less inclusive so they may see LGBTQI as bad coinage and themselves as good one. What else is new, don't we all see ourselves as good coinage.So here it is. I'm afraid that if you own a naturist venue and want to stay in business you either discriminate or become a gay venue. Which is fine, but most owners of naturist venues belong to older generations and have a tendency to apply labels and like certain forms of nudism and not others.I know for a fact that nobody reads the entirety of my posts but for the few who have browsed and skipped to the end for the usual questions, what do you think? It is the fault of owners of naturist venues, who charge too much and discriminate against single men and LGBTQI, or a societal evolution which is behind the decline of naturism?
That's a thought provoking essay Flora, i will try to be more succinct in reply.
Personally, whether a financial analogy or human, many of the trends we experience and have seen are cyclical in so much as what goes around comes around... taking your (the) vision of naturism, ladies being pushed away by men, straight men being pushed away by lack of ladies, gay men taking over... does that not allow for the return of the ladies? i.e. ladies departed due to the pressure from straight men, whilst gay men will not apply the same emotional pressure on a naked lady, won't that provide a more relaxed environment for the return of the lady and her readiness to de-robe? Its not as though the ladies never enjoyed nudism in the first place... then of course, the cycle has the elements to start over...
Just a whimsical thought.
Richie x
Please excuse this late response and, much like Richie's, succinct response; I believe the overt and less obvious (indiscernible) are both being correctly identified in the post. But another factor coming into play is a natural market cycle. When a newish or reinvented activity is found and publicized, it can either die or expand. As nudism rapidly expanded about 15+ years ago, a great many people decided to 'stick their toe in' the waters and try it for a while. For some, it was a real initial thrill and others it was a simple naturist type enjoyment. The former group stayed until the excitement started to subside and left while the smaller latter group has continued. The first exposure and rapid growth of nudism brought about the large number of nudist venues and as this surge has subsided, those same places are disappearing due to lack of demand. The real answer is that no one size fits all. I believe we'll just have to ride this one out and see how it plays in the end.
It is a fascinating conversation. My personal experience has been conquered both ways. Society, in general, looks at nudity as a rather unusual event, and to them, it is usually associated (in their mind) with abnormal behavior. For the ones who have just discovered it, it runs through them as something to try, like, "Been there, done that!"
I do take the time to study the feed feature daily. The pure number of young people who join, post a silly selfie with "puckered lips" dressed on a nudist site, and never return constantly amazes me.
I also find it interesting how many middle-aged ladies dressed to the max send me friend requests with dating indicated on their TN profiles. As a student, I have accepted at least twenty of them over the past five years, and none of them have ever tried to converse in any way. They have been deleted.
I agree there has been and still is a decline in naturism. I imagine 99.8 percent of the population is against nudism, which leaves us .02 percent to carry the torch.
Everyone introduced to nudity, whether by accident or coincidence, will have a different perspective based on their beliefs and upbringing. Most associate it with the sex industry or simply perversion.
Discussing trends with the manager of my club, I find, as he does, there are cycles of interest in nudity; some stay, and most disappear back into the textile world.
There is a decline in naturism.
I would make a distinction between the two isms, naturism, where people get naked to be closer to nature, and nudism, where people get naked to have fun.
I don't know about other continents, but I think that nudity where I live has become more relaxed. It is true that you don't see so many pairs of breasts on the beach, but you can see full frontal nudity in almost ever film broadcast in prime time. In Germany, nudity is around most lakes in summer and in all spas year round. All of my girlfriends have accompanied me in such spas and have been nude socially. Most have posed for me naked, some in quite erotic situations. They are also sometimes ready to drop their clothes during a party where the situation asks for it. Of course, they are not a representative sample, it's more likely that they are my friends because they are fun and relaxed.
But they don't select nudist destinations for their holidays and definitely not old-style naturist ones. Neither do I actually, although D does choose nudist (not naturist) ones. And we all wear a bit of makeup even in saunas... W care about how we look, our sunglasses are fancy, our slippers elegant... This is clearly not naturism.
Hi Richie,
I appreciate your thoughtful response. You bring up an interesting idea about the potential cyclical nature of naturisms gender dynamics. Its possible that, as gay men become more prevalent in certain spaces, they might unintentionally create a more relaxed and non-threatening environment, which could indeed lead to the return of women who previously felt overwhelmed or pressured by straight men. Its a whimsical thought, but perhaps a valid one, especially as naturism constantly evolves with shifting social dynamics.
Thanks for sharing your insight! Best,
Vince
Hi John,
I really appreciate your succinct and insightful comment. Youre absolutely right that were probably witnessing a natural market cycle at play. The initial thrill of trying something new, followed by the steady decline as the novelty wears off, is something many activities face. As naturism surged in popularity, we saw a growth in venues, and now, as you mentioned, we may just have to ride it out and see what remains. Perhaps this is an opportunity for naturism to refine its focus and return to its core values, attracting a more dedicated community.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Cheers,
Vince
Hi FroggynFrogett,
Thanks for chiming in! Its great to hear that youve been into naturism for many years and still find joy in it. Your continued participation and love for the lifestyle are what will help keep the torch burning, despite the changes weve been discussing. Its encouraging to hear from dedicated naturists like you.
All the best,
Vince
Hi Rosewood,
Thank you for your engaging and reflective reply. Youve touched on a crucial point about society's perception of nudity and how it impacts naturism. Many people still associate nudity with abnormal behaviour or perversion, which creates a significant barrier for naturisms growth. The cyclical nature of interest in naturism that you mentioned, where some newcomers dip their toes in and quickly retreat, seems to mirror what many others have observed. Its clear that those of us who remain have to keep pushing against these societal norms and misconceptions.
Appreciate your perspective!
Vince
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