Believe it, ............. or not?
(third thought :)
Now I've thought about it a bit more and decided that out of respect for the original poster, maybe I should post this on a new thread, even though it is a response to Tom from the thread "Very Disappointed"
(second thought :)
I've just read through this, and realise that I got a bit carried away, so I had better say at the start, that I really do NOT want to offend or upset anyone. You have a perfect right to believe what your instincts tell you, and I respect that. If you are likely to be offended by religious discussion, please do not read any further. This is what I see, after 57 years of a fairly diverse, fortunate and interesting life on this planet. I am the product of everything I have seen, heard and done. I wish I could see it differently, I would be a much happier chap, but that's life!
(first thought :)Phil said: ... Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm sure the believers DO have a much happier life!
Thomas said: ... That is true Phil, I also agree with there being way too much commercialism with Christmas. I saw a quote once that makes you think though.
I would rather live my life as if there was a God, and die to find out there isn't one than
Live my life as if there was no God, and die to find out there is one.
Author unknown
Agreed Tom, on the face of it, that is a logical way to look at it. But, I am not in control of what I believe, I can't just decide that I -want- to believe something, and I really don't see how anyone can, without lying to themselves, I don't even know how you could do that, even if you wanted to. On any given subject, regardless of what it is, you accumulate as much knowledge as you can about it, taking into account the views of others that you judge to be much more knowledgeable than you are, and your opinion is formed by that evidence that you acquire. If there is not conclusive evidence for a particular theory, then your opinion is still formed by the likelihood, or probability that something is either true or false, according to the limited information, that you can gather. In my view, it is not something that you can decide to do, your common sense does it for you.
I think it is very understandable, how religions came into being. Thousands of years ago, there was practically no understanding about anything, not even where the rain came from, let alone what a thunderstorm was. Never mind quantum Physics! :)
As we have learned to be naturally afraid of anything we do not understand, it's perfectly plausible to my mind, that stories were made up to explain the questions that our developing inquisitive brains were asking. And the masses, having no knowledge to the contrary, believed it, often because they were afraid not to. Even to this day, children are actually taught to be afraid to disbelieve. I mean, if I need to be afraid of god, he is definitely -not- someone I want to know, much less love and worship! Why would I want to believe in, and worship someone that allows so much pain and cruelty in the world, (if he -is- so "all powerful") on practically every level, from a tiny insect up to us so called civilised beings, the world is a very crewel and hash place for everything that tries to live on it. That is how, everything has evolved into what it is today, the strongest, fittest, smartest, survive to go on and reproduce more strong, fit, smart, individuals, and the less efficient don't survive to reproduce. It's quite beautifully simple really! :)
The question of whether or not there is an intelligent "something" out there somewhere, has to be the most difficult question of all, but as far as the "all knowing god" that most religions proclaim is concerned, there is just far too much evidence out there these days, (if your brave enough to look at it) that explains and dispels so much of what religion teaches, that the likelihood of any of it being true is very slim indeed.
That's not to say that there is not other intelligent life out there, in fact, given how insignificant our little planet is, and the sheer number of literally hundreds of billions of other planetary systems that are probably populating the universe, it is very unlikely, in fact impossible to believe that we -have- the only planet that supports life, and there is no reason why that life cannot be as, or even more intelligent than we are. It could easily be millions of our years in advance of us, and probably an unimaginable distance from us.
No, the world that I'm looking at, is amazing, fantastic, beautiful, incredible, and a frightening, dangerous, totally unfair hypocritical hell, all at the same time, and I would be very surprised if we do not destroy it ourselves. There IS no one to stop us!
Feel better now!
Normally I would say you are right but I am afraid to get hit by lightning
Bman, Haha, you'll be alright, you got 24/7 wall to wall sunshine, I bet it doesn't even get dark there,
don't tell me, ... I know, ... it does, ... but then you just go moon bathing!
Ok. All jokes aside ( hard for me..you know.)
So much to say
ALL religions are business and politics , it doesnt make them wrong nor right, just a fact!
Remember that Jesus where crucified for political reasons , not less not more.
The food fest you mention are a long time tradition from the beginning of times when he cavemens sit around the fire to eat the last Mamet, has nothing to do with religion.
I totally agree with the fact that the religion business has totally gone south but also remember that in the dark ages , kings used religion to control the people.
That said, yes , I do believe in God.
(I am also pretty sure ,God is a women since no men will do to me what have been done in the pastlol)
But seriously , I had very long discussions with rabies and even an ex apprentice of the Vatican
( who converted to Jewish by the way)
When we regard the bible as a scientific text , obviously it is pretty far from the science we have today.
But lets remember the bible was written by God for people who didnt even know how to read.
Lets say you go back in time aprox 4500 years ( when the bible was given )
How do you explain the big bang to a bunch of slaves who doesnt even read?
With a simplified metaphor so the could understand it.
We have to remember that in the bible you have so many explanations and commandments for things that only today modern science begins to understand.
So yes , if you look at the bible as a fact book , it will fail.
Other point is, religion is an important base for human nature , it is much needed since most people dont have the moral ground for decent human behavior.
One will probably will mention the Islam and ask me where is the moral.
Though Jewish and Islam are long time enemies ,I will defent it now, we have to remember , the Judaism and Christianity took a similar path.
Beside , real Islam preaches for tolerance and good , extremist we have also in Judaism and Christianity as one
The difference is that while Judaism has 4500 years and Christianity have 1930 years , Islam has 1300 years and its young and taking the same path that Christianity took when it was at a similar age and Judaism at his first 300 years.
About the bad and wrong in this world , well , all the major religion says that the world end will begin with our own wrong actions
As we see on daily bases, we are keeping our part of the deal
Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is no such thing as God.
I choose to believe there is and that he has given us the option to choose between right and wrong, if we choose a dark path ,that doesnt make him less of a God ,it just makes us less humans
I would like to commend both Bman and Phil on very well written posts. You show your views without belittling someone's opposing view. I will say my views are very simular to Bman. I know people who the doctors told had only a short time to live due to untreatable cancer survive and the cancer go away with just prayers. Some may say it was just the person had a will to live and a hope and belief that their prayers would be answered that gave them the stregnth to win the battle. If that is the case, their belief is a good thing as I see it.
Thomas
Thank you, Phil, for having the courage to tell all of us what you don't believe even though you know it is not a popular choice to do so and thank you to all of the rest of you for stating your views without being demeaning. If only the rest of the world could learn to argue so eloquently and politely,maybe there would be no need for wars.
I have to dissent from this post. I'm not a evangelical, but I am a believer.
Well, I am evengelical, as some know, but there's a time and a place.
( I'm evangelical, NOT *an* evangelical, and the difference is important )I can understand why people don't believe. I was there myself once. In fact I was probably one of the loudest agnostics this planet ever saw.
That makes two of us, at least !However, what can't be dismissed is the personal experience that many Christians have had. Not simply a feeling of being in the presence of God, but also literally hearing God. I've been called a nut for saying that, but I know what I know, and I won't defend it.......I don't have to. For those that have never been in the presence of God, I can understand the doubt and disbelief. But, for anyone that has.....you will never be able to convince them it never happened, nor be able to trivialize that experience.
HEAR ! HEAR !
If you have not the experience, no explanation is possible. If you have, no explanation is necessary.I would pray, that if you never have experienced that feeling, that someday you will, and you will never doubt again.
I'm not so certain I'd agree with that. An awsome and terrifying experience, though the sense of humor was quite unexpected. I'm afraid many would not be able to handle it. I could be wrong. ( yeah, THAT's never happened ! )I realize many of you don't know who I am, and most will simply dismiss this. I'm ok with that. Take care and God bless you anyhow.
On that, there can be no disagreement !
However, what can't be dismissed is the personal experience that many Christians have had. Not simply a feeling of being in the presence of God, but also literally hearing God.
With all due respect, and with no intention of belittling anybody's beliefs:
If God ever speaks to me, I hope She'll tell me exactly which book or which leader, if any, to follow. That's a fair question,isn't it?
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